The Gaming Den

The Pleasure Devil evolution was a half-assed attempt to reconcile the 3rd edition version of the Erinyes (which was a seducer) with the 3.5 version (which was a vengeance-based archer).

But Devil evolution has always made as much sense as Remorraid evolution.

-Username17

I made an Erinyes remake a while ago more based upon the Greek version, as part of an attempt to supply non-Baatezu fiends.
They could be represented as fiendish medusa(gorgon)-erinyes, but even that doesn't come close to the capabilities.
I looked at the role they had in myth, and started from there, canon or not.

But the existence of many fiends at all makes just as much sense as Mr. Mime, or....




Cielingcat: Yes. Lord of the Pit Fiend. 7/7 Trample, flying, cast Fireball, poison bite. 20 HD. Best of both worlds.

I like the fact that Pit Fiends have a deadly poison. They're one of the few actually challenging high-CR things that does (you can make that spider as large as you want, but if I'm flying, I win), so a lot of people tend to forget poison resistance. It's a good way to go "Surprise! Somebody needs to keep their anti-poison spells on hand!"

... But who in his right mind is going into melee with an AC that the pit fiend can hit?

A valid point. I suppose at that level, you're in planning mode or you're dead, so anyone who lets it bite them deserves what they get.

I'd rather that Pit Fiends were tall gothic figures with massive horn attacks, no poison bite, no 'wing flap attack' or whatever the fuck that is they do there, less SLAs, some sort of casting class-overlap (like with Nymph), and better battlefiend control.

Slap some nice iron armor, a greatsword, and some other doodads on your 'average Pit Fiend', which really should be more special than a L20 flying XP bag, and it's coming closer to what I'd like to see.

Seriously... here's the feats as they are:
Cleave,
Great Cleave,
Improved Initiative,
Iron Will,
Multiattack,
Power Attack,
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball)

Iron. Fuckin. Will.

The Su abilities and qualities are OK, but then I come to the SLAs...

Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

At will -
blasphemy (DC 25),
create undead,
fireball (DC 21),
greater dispel magic,
greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only),
invisibility,
magic circle against good,
mass hold monster (DC 27),
persistent image (DC 23),
power word stun,
unholy aura (DC 26);

1/day - meteor swarm (DC 27).

Well that's a grab bag, eh?
No more Wish 1/year, though.
Invisibility is worth crap since most casters will have True Seeing if not Permanent See Invisible.
Mass Hold Monster.. ehhhh.. plus Power Word Stun? Ain't that redundant?
The Evil ones, Blasphemy and Unholy Aura, are specific yet effective, if combating Good is all they do... which it isn't. What about the Blood War? The Pit Fiend's powers are mostly worthless against an average fiend.
And then of course we have Fireball, plain and simple. No Empower or Expanded, nothin.
What a rip...

For melee there's a flury of little peckings with that wopping single 4d6 poison bite, but a smaller number of better attacks might be ideal when facing high-AC opponents.
Or just to combine something like one tail slap plus one claw plus one Iron Unholy Greatsword +3 for less rolls, and the feats can be better spend on more SLA-enhancing rather than Multiattack +Greatcleave.

What intelligent fiend would ever put theirself into a position to be flanked and actually USE those feats???
It's better to be mastermind, with controling powers (which they have some but a shoddy selection) and a very powerful attack to backup their position as 'leaders'.

To me it looks like a small dragon with [Evil] tagged as an afterthought. It really lacks the fiendish feel that, supposedly, the 'gothic' Baatezu carry.

I look forward to some kind of fix for this, since everything in 4e is being shuffled around.
At least put some clothes on... jeez...

Sigma, do you realize that all the demons and their abilities you seem to hate come from Tolkien?

Honestly, I never did see the seducer Erinyes, so I'm totally flabbergasted that they thought the two were at all the same...

-Crissa

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1190104832[/unixtime]]Sigma, do you realize that all the demons and their abilities you seem to hate come from Tolkien?

They predate Tolkien. You might be thinking of the Balor, which is the CE Abyss Tanar'ri counterpoint to Pit Fiend. Stupidly similar yet different.

Well, OK, Balor is a ripoff, but that's just one and the only demon I recall from LOTR>

Yeah, I can't think of what the Babau and crappy-baby-demons are in LotR.

For the record, Mass Hold Monster and PW: Stun are very different spells, not redundant at all. One is a group save or lose with multiple saving throws, the other is a single target loses spell. Automagically, with very few defenses. Particularly the party's wizard. HPs < 150? Stunned

The Blood War point is pretty good though. Add in the 'can't overcome each other's DR' angle and you're set.

Aw sorry, forgot about the Power Words being single target.

It still does the same thing though, immobilizing an opponent rather than make something or destroy a target, and that just doesn't fit with Pit Fiends IMO.

About that 'opposing elements' thing in Blood War (which will probably be scrapped in 4e anyways) is that although it makes sense that Devils might get a hold on crude iron ore and make DR-bypassing anti-Demon weapons, but what about anti-Devil?
Silver is mythologically a pure thing. And here Demons are, mining it or trading for it to produce weapons. Or are they just clawing furiously, hoping for crits?

I'd like that addressed somehow. Maybe make all fiends weak to the same element, or something other than alignment-based DRs.

I hate the Blood War, it's pretty stupid in general. It's a lot easier to just say that evil fights against evil sometimes, but not have the "you're lawful and I'm chaotic, lets be archenemies." garbage.

My thought for that was simply to make any 'opposed' philosophy/ideal/religion break DR. Opposed is a bit murky, but a 'holy' sword devoted to Heironeous should be able to smack around any type of fiend, undead, fey or Slaadi. Its part of the nature Herioneous. Similarly, Demons can smack around any celestials and devils, because their opposites in some defined way.

Still, I think you're missing something in MHM and PW:stun. You carve a person's hps down enough, and they are stunned for pretty much the entire combat. The no save is a big deal, as is the inherent low HP of a wizard. Hold monster won't hold clerics or wizards for very long, but its great at breaking a group of fighters

Further, immobilization is great for Pit Fiends. Just killing someone isn't the same as beating them. Or beating them and killing all their friends *while they watch*. Never underestimate the benefits of rendering people helpless when engaging in properly fiendish behavior. Pit Fiends are one of the highest representations of 'pure' Lawful Evil. They should not just be beatsticks.

Yeah d20 Modern has something like that, with alignments changed into factions or affiliations or similar.
On the downside, everything inhuman is a 'shadow being' from the 'shadow world' and injured by the same elements.

Maybe I don't see the use of Hold and Stun for a Devil, it's too limited. I'd still prefer if they had Telekinesis or Forcecage (some nerf variation, not as it is) instead.

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1190149354[/unixtime]]I hate the Blood War, it's pretty stupid in general. It's a lot easier to just say that evil fights against evil sometimes, but not have the "you're lawful and I'm chaotic, lets be archenemies." garbage.

IMC, I had all of the Lower Planes be originally one place for Evil people, but the native Fiends got into a war on how the place should be run to punish the wicked; the Devils wanted it to be like a giant prison colony, while the Demons wanted a "no holds barred, anything goes" form of purgatory. The Devils argued that the strong will simply rule the weak, and their deeds would go unpunished. A giant war broke out, fighting over territory in the Lower Planes, which became the Blood War.
BTW, the Yugoloths suggested draining the inhabitants' will to do anything, which was the most effective. This did not sit well with the Celestials, as it through redemption out the window.

That sounds better - that the fight came first, then the type split and separate planes, then the alignments.

In other news, the elemental planes just got eaten by the cosmology change. (ENworld actually seems to be useful for the collation of rumors).

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? ... 2[br][br]A few other tidbits lurking around in there too.

wrote:. (Of course, these planes don't hold a candle to 2E's hilarious Plane of Vacuum, which is truly the antithesis of fun.)

I'm prepared to bet actual money they somehow do a write up for the Plane of Vacuum 4th ed within 3 years.

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1190132346[/unixtime]]Automagically, with very few defenses. Particularly the party's wizard. HPs < 150? Stunned

Not in 3.5--by the time powerword stun becomes available, everyone has mindblank up all the time so it never works.

There really isn't much chance for high-powered fiends to engage in fiendish behavior anyhow: everyone who isn't camped in a stronghold layered deep enough in protection spells, defenders, traps, and arbitrary nonsense is dead; and if someone manages to penetrate one of those strongholds, if you don't aim to end the combat in one round or less, chances are your enemy will.

Oh, right. I forget that power words are mind affecting in some way that doesn't make sense. I hate high level 3rd edition games even more every day.

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1190272196[/unixtime]]In other news, the elemental planes just got eaten by the cosmology change. (ENworld actually seems to be useful for the collation of rumors).

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? ... 2[br][br]A few other tidbits lurking around in their too.

Yes! That shit is finally tossed in the pot and stewed.

Every time I read about that cosmology of the elemental planes, their relation to each other, the natural antagonism, I just want to puke.
A friend remade a cosmology as more of a Prime-related thing tied to every related element found on Prime worlds, not as each elemental plane a distinct and seperate region.
Go glad that is done with.
Anything different would be better than the default.

And, so... a larger article is up on the D&D site.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... ote][br]In the real world, "demon" is synonymous with "devil." "Abyss" and "hell" have a similar relationship. D&D designers have struggled with these facts since 1977 when the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game depicted demons and devils, the Abyss and the Nine Hells. The original basis for the division was alignment. Aligned planes existed to provide a meaningful afterlife for similarly aligned characters, and a need to fill those planes with natives resulted in demons being distinct from devils. As the game evolved, the original division remained, but too many similarities persisted. The advent of 4th Edition lets us accentuate the differences between the two primary species of fiends.

Throughout demons' and devils' existence in the D&D game, resemblances between them have been stronger and more numerous than differences. Both species are extraplanar forces of evil that seek souls to supplement their numbers. Each breed has wretched and implike creatures at the bottom of the hierarchy and godlike archfiends at the top. Each member of both species has a wide array of similar (and often superfluous) supernatural powers. Most demons and devils are superior to members of typical PC races in every way, including incredible intelligence. Their purposes in the material world have always been similar.

In the original AD&D Monster Manual, Gary Gygax admitted that devils “somewhat resemble the demons both in their characteristics and abilities.” AD&D 2nd Edition kept the planar structure of the original game. Demons and devils became tanar’ri and baatezu, respectively, but little made them distinct other than their categorical names. Only a conflict called the Blood War kept them from overrunning the material world. However, this evil-on-evil fight didn’t expand the possibilities for typical D&D play. On the contrary, the Blood War brought the motivations and hierarchy of demons and devils closer together. The 3rd Edition of D&Dretained so many of 2nd Edition’s concepts that it did little to clarify the situation until the release of Fiendish Codex I. Fourth Edition changes all that.

In 4th Edition, the Nine Hells are an astral dominion among other deific abodes in the Astral Sea (more on that in an upcoming Design & Development column). The resident deity is Asmodeus, who as an angel in primeval times, led an army of his fellows against his celestial master and murdered that god. Although Asmodeus gained divine might from his foul deed, he and his followers also suffered their victim’s dying curse. Under the power of that malediction, all the rebellious angels twisted in form and became devils. Worse still, the murdered god’s words transformed Asmodeus's dominion into a nightmarish place and bound the newborn devils to it. To this day, devils plot to escape their prison, weaving lies and corruption to ensure their eventual freedom and to seize even greater power.

Asmodeus rules Hell with despotic pride, and all devils conform to his strict hierarchy or face destruction. Within the chain of command, lesser devils use whatever power they have to mimic their ultimate leader. Devils work to gain influence in the cosmos, especially among mortals in the world. They eagerly respond to any summons and readily form cleverly worded pacts. They plan and build to meet their needs, making and using all sorts of devices, tools, and weapons. A devil might be supernaturally potent, and it might possess incredible magic items, but its greatest assets are its shrewdly calculating mind and eternal patience. Devils want to impose a sort of order -- specifically theirs -- on the cosmos.

Not so with demons.

In the Abyss, which gapes like a festering wound in the landscape of the Elemental Tempest, demons teem, eternally divided among themselves simply by their insatiable lust for ruin. Legend says that the Chained God, Tharizdun, found a seed of evil in the young cosmos, and during the gods’ war with the primordials, he threw that seed into the Elemental Tempest. There, the evil seed despoiled all that came into contact with it (some say it tainted Tharizdun himself) and created the Abyss as it burned a hole in the very structure of the plane. Elemental beings that came too close to the Abyss became trapped and warped. Any desire they have turns to the longing to obliterate the gods, creation, and even one another. They became demons.

Most demons are savage and fearless engines of annihilation. Although sometimes driven by unspeakable yearning or by horrifying demon lords to gather in groups, demons have no real organization and no singular aim. Demons don’t negotiate, and they build nothing lasting. Most use tooth and claw rather than artificial weapons. They care little or nothing for souls. Even the mightiest demon lords manipulate other demons by using threats, direct violence, or the promise of more destruction through affiliation. Although the lords of the Abyss that veteran D&D players know and love to hate still exist, no monolithic hierarchy supports any demon’s influence. Although a demon might want to destroy another creature and take that creature’s power, success only results in the winning demon using and squandering what it has seized. Demons have no regard for the responsibilities of authority, and they care little for keeping what they acquire. They’re forces of unmaking, and a universe under them would reflect the horror that is the Abyss, if that universe survived at all.

What does a clearer distinction between the two major species of fiends mean for your game? If you need a devious fiend that cares about souls and works on long-term schemes, use a devil. However, wholesale slaughter, pointless suffering, and terrifying devastation call for a demon. A villain or even a player character might bargain with devils, but those who conjure demons do so only to wreak havoc on their enemies. In short, the unambiguous division of the fiends is another way 4th Edition makes the game easier to design for and to play.[/quote]

Reactions? Venting? Death threats?

There are some hints about whats happening to the elemental planes. And good ol' Tharzy.

It's kinda smart, but the back story for devils is way to Christian for me. Why can't we just have devils?

But I wonder: If they spent this much effort on stuff about 3% of the fluff about D&D regulars, will they spend an equal amount on the other 97%? Or will they just spend 20% of their points on Christian bullshit and keep the half-assed explanations for everything else?

Who knows. Though, honestly, this looks like a short bit of fluff that someone scribbled down on the flight back from Gen Con. Its more or less the definition of completely disposable fluff, pulled primarily from the Giant Morass of Generic Fantasy Tropes.

Yeah, given how little it seems to be imposing on the mechanics, I don't think Planescape fanboys and all will need to worry - they can seriously just use their old 2Ed cosmology and the rules won't care, by the sound of it.